Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard McKeever on March 28, 2012 at 10:34

Hi Linda

We had noticed that it was getting more difficult to find a space - and were talking to neighbours in Melbourne about it at the weekend - thanks for solving the mystery!

Interesting that a limited CPZ may help the situation - there has previously been quite a bit of discussion on this site about the merits - or negatives - of a local CPZ, with most people opposed.

Richard

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Permalink Reply by Nicole James on March 28, 2012 at 21:07

Not the same area but the absence of local CPZ on the Enfield roads near Bowes Park Railway line and the tube (Goring/Westbury/Beech/ Elvendon) is a nightmare. These roads are used by commuters in the day time and van drivers at night to leave their vehicles - I don't think that the Haringey roads like Queen's Road (which have a limited CPZ between 10.00 and 12.00) have the same issue - the annual charge isn't excessive and you can get buy all day and visitor passes for a small fee. I am at at loss to understand why anyone would object to this but apparently the results of the last resident survey on the subject were strongly against. My own experience of living in a CPZ zone in Islington and now being regularly obliged to park two roads away with heavy shopping and a baby and a toddler in tow have convinced me that CPZ is to the way to go.

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Permalink Reply by linda scipioni on March 28, 2012 at 22:52

it may be worth doing another petition, particularly due to the impact of the CPZ introduced near bounds green has pushed parking down to enfield streets. doing a limited 2 hour CPZ does restrict commuter parking but also allows for short stay parking to use local shops etc so not harming local traders, visitors etc.

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Permalink Reply by Alison Shoop on March 30, 2012 at 13:11

I live in Elvendon Road and parking has become steadily worse over the last few years.  We were consulted about CPZ between 10.00 and 12.00 and I was one of the people who said "no thanks" based on my observation that it's not during the daytime that we have a problem, but in the evening.  Over the last couple of months I've been trying to take regular note of the parking situation when I'm at home during the day - and at our end of the street (the Brownlow Road end), there's plenty of parking during the day, so even if people are leaving their cars to go to the tube, it doesn't seem to be causing a huge problem.  However - I am reluctant to go anywhere by car in the evening on the basis that by the time I get back there's nowhere at all to park.  I'm not sure who the cars/vans belong to that are filling up Elvendon Road in the evenings, but a daytime restriction wouldn't solve this problem. I'm not really sure what the solution to this problem is, but just thought I'd add my observations.

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Permalink Reply by Kathie Burke on March 30, 2012 at 23:04

I could not believe the results of the CPZ survey  I live near Bowes school and every neighbour I know accepts, with more or less enthusiasm, that we need CPZ.  Apart from the problem you mention, we have the dreaded school run, with some people arriving even an hour early to pick up their kids - they just park and sit there!  And then there are the teachers...OK, I also drive to work but I have to pay for a permit to park when I get there (Chase Farm Hospital) and I'll get a ticket if I park where I'm not allowed.   Considering how many good transport links we have, do the teachers really have to park in our street all day?  I was also verbally harassed by one of their mini-bus drivers as I parked, totally legally, on school markings after 9.45 a.m.  He said only parents and teachers should be allowed to park in the street!

We  have also had people leaving their cars for a couple of weeks while they go on holiday (as Bounds Green Tube - great for Heathrow - and Bowes Park station are a handy 10 minute walk away).  Then there are the nights when the school has some event or the other (we are never forewarned) and it is impossible to park in our own street until after 8 or 9 p.m.  

In spite of the probs caused by the inevitable school traffic, which is worse since Stanley Road was closed, I think our area is terrific, I love living here, but I also accept that this is London - if Londoners live within 15 mins walk of a Tube then sooner or later CPZ just has to happen.  We will have increasing numbers of commuters parking as time goes on and I don't even want to think about Notting Hill Housing wanting to plonk another 1,000 people in the area.  

In an ideal world then Residents' Permits would be free for 1 vehicle per household, with the option of buying a permit for more, but realistically as far as the Council is concerned it's a money-making venture and we will all have to pay.  I really do not object, as long as it's a reasonable fee, if it gives me some chance of parking somewhere near where I live.  I'm not sure that most people are really opposed - I think the people who oppose it might just be the most vociferous, with those who would not mind just not getting involved.  I find it fascinating to read that more of those who think this a good idea are beginning to make their voices heard now  and I agree that the whole situation is due for a review.  

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Permalink Reply by Cllr Matt Cooke on April 2, 2012 at 14:15

Hi all,

Obviously I only cover the Bounds Green Roads (so Palmerston and Sidney are the only roads mentioned here) but do come and talk to me about this at my open surgery on Wednesday 11th April at 128 Myddleton Rd from 18:30 if that would be useful. If the community is minded to go down the CPZ route, then ensuring that there's good join-up between Haringey and Enfield Councils on this will be crucial. One opposign the other blocked the Marlborough/Thorold/Whittington CPZ for many, many months and we should try and avoid that if this idea develops by ensuring as much discussion between the Councils now.

 

Thanks

 

Matt

07814 238 115

matt.cooke@haringey.gov.uk

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Permalink Reply by roland.hewes on April 2, 2012 at 18:17

I fully appreciate what you say but please have a read through and consider the following before you start thinking that a CPZ is the answer to all your prayers! I did much research into this area when the local council tried to push one onto us.
Councils and their councillors are keen to keep extending CPZs as they are a major & growing source of revenue for them. They sell them by dressing them up as a community improvement matter.  

A few things about CPZ:
1)Fewer parking spaces & loss of front gardens:
- Instead of paying for a parking space outside their home people instead pay the council a one-off cost to lower the kerb in front of their house & thereby turn their front garden into a parking space. This results in fewer attractive green front gardens & one less parking space on the street. Drop kerbs also pose an added danger to children and the elderly using the pavement.
- Bays are marked out in the road resulting in fewer spaces.

2)Price of permits
Prospective areas for CPZ are told permits will be priced at  about £70 per year. Remember that this is the initial price & is bound to be increased once the scheme is operational. It also doesn’t include the cost & hassle of getting permits. (Do a quick google search on London CPZ permit price rises and you will see what I mean)

Then don’t forget the hassle of getting temporary permits for any visitors you have.

3)Time CPZ in operation:
Consultation letters often state that a CPZ will be for just a few hours a day Monday to Friday to stop commuter parking. Beware, this too could be changed at a later date to include weekends, which is a real pain if you have friends or family visiting as you have to purchase temporary permits for them.

4)Enforcement:
Do you really want target driven (council employed or contracted out) ‘enforcement officers’ driving up and down your street on mopeds  each day looking for vehicles to ticket. Remember their job is to maximise revenue so they can ticket you for parking your car with one wheel on the curb etc.

5)Is it needed?
There are certainly fewer spaces available in many areas since the CPZ was forced through by Haringay council around Bounds Green tube and up to the Enfield Borough borders over a year ago. This is because some living in the affected Haringay streets are avoiding the payment forced upon them by parking in our nearby fee-free Enfield streets. We should be angry that we didn’t get consulted on that scheme as it has directly impacted on us.
Remember car ownership is actually falling and is liable to continue to do so as we face ever higher fuel prices, insurance premiums and hopefully improved public transport. One of the attractions of living outside of central London has always been not having the stress of the parking warden.  

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Permalink Reply by Kathie Burke on April 3, 2012 at 0:48

The argument of 1) above was pushed heavily by the anti-CPZ lobby when the last survey was carried out.  PLEASE NOTE:  IN HIGHWORTH AND STANLEY ROADS THE FRONT GARDENS ARE TOO SMALL TO PARK ANYTHING LARGER THAN A SCOOTER.  THIS IS A COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT ARGUMENT AS FAR AS THESE ROADS, WHICH NEED CPZ, ARE CONCERNED.  There will be NO dropped kerbs and front-garden-parking as the gardens are not even large enough for Smart cars.  My front garden was paved over before I moved in - reclaiming it as garden is on the To-Do list for the house, as it serves no purpose and I'd rather have flowers.  

For the second point, yes, we will have to lobby to keep the prices down BUT if we have CPZ for a few hours e.g. 8-10 and 2-3 weekdays then I can't foresee much hassle re having to obtain temporary permits for our visitors.   Yes, if they try to extend it then we'll have to fight again - but if we want to live in this great area, which is part of London, we can't just sit back and watch it be swallowed up.  Even people living out in the wilds beyond the M25 have to fight for their patch now & then.

Yup, piece-work parking wardens can be a problem (speaking as someone who previously lived in Westminster).  But, I found that even Westminster Council was willing to listen to challenges re over-zealous ticketing.

Yes, IT IS NEEDED.  Roland, I invite you to spend a term-time weekday few hours here and see for yourself.  Better still, try doing my weekly shop and then lugging it in from a couple of streets away.  I'm sure you did lots of research but perhaps still a bit more is required.

Finally, I repeat - if we live anywhere in London, not just central, near good Tube & Train services then commuters will invade.  One of the probs at Chase Farm Hospital was that visitors complained (justifiably) at having to pay£4 for 24 hours whereas commuters found this good value for parking near Gordon Hill. Hence us staff had nowhere to park and the hospital eventually privatised the parking to a very avaricious company - but we now pay for our permits and I haven't had any parking problem there since.  They are vicious, I hate them, but I have to admit it has worked.

As for car ownership falling, what with the population ageing, more people surviving previously terminal conditions but being disabled, I don't think so.  Maybe younger people might not be so eager to own cars in future as it does become more expensive for them (I doubt it, actually) but us old farts need our cars and are not likely to give them up.  We'd also like to be able to park near where we live.  How about a CPZ deal giving pensioners free or reduced-fee CPZ permits but charging working-age residents only?  Yeah, I know, but if you don't dream...

Please consider the counter-arguments cited herein.  They are valid.  

Best wishes,

Kathie

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Permalink Reply by Nicole James on April 3, 2012 at 21:08

Hi Roland

You put forward some valid arguments but I think this is a case of trying to shut the stable door once the horse has bolted - there is a huge problem with parking and CPZ seems the only viable way of addressing it:

1) On Goring and Westbury Roads, many residents have already had their curbs to be dropped (at great expense I hasten to add... we paid about £500 and that was a bargain price because the council were already doing work). I agree with all your arguments about how unattractive this looks and how it leads to fewer spaces but it is the reality of life here already and maybe with CPZ and a better guarantee of parking, some people might decide to go back to having a front garden and park on the roads.

2) Price of permits - I think we were quoted around £38 for the limited time two hourly CPZ which I don't think is out of most people's reach (although I concede that for people on a limited income, any price may be too much). When I lived in Islington (and we had all day CPZ), we used to buy visitor permits in bundles when we renewed our pass - you can buy books of half hourly passes so it wasn't particularly expensive or a hassle.

3) It would be for us to campaign against any proposed changes to the limited CPZ

4) Enforcement - CPZ won't be effective if it isn't enforced - with fewer commuter cars on the roads, it should be easier to park legally

5) Yes it is needed - the reality of life on these streets is that we can't park because of commuters and vans who park round here. We can get as angry as we like about what has happened historically but in my experience CPZ is effective and far less stressful than wondering how you are going to transport your baby, toddler and four bags of shopping to your home from a parking spot you have squeezed into two roads away.

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Permalink Reply by Alan Sitkin on April 4, 2012 at 10:46

Friends,

Have been following this debate. It is an area where if it were at all possible we Bowes ward councillors would want to help out at Enfield level. Just a few problems however:

1. We've conducted intensive consultation with local residents re: CPZ. The results were overwhelmingly against. Unless opinions have change dramatically, we go with the democratic will.

2. The thing about someone parking extra cars in the street and using up spaces. I had a chance to look at something similar a little while back and discovered (I believe it's national legislation) that they have the right to do so for up to eight cars. Don't know why lawmakers came up with the number eight but that's what it is.

In general, parking and congestion is awful and getting worse: in Bowes ward; in Enfield; in North London; in the world. It's the automatic consequence of a finite supply (of space) and rising demand (for space). Someone wrote below that people will abandon cars as fuel prices rise and I think that will be true some point in the future but certainly not yet. For the moment, car ownership and use is skyrocketing, correlated in large part with our rising (and older) population.  The question then becomes what to do.

This is an issue that concerns me tremendously, in part because the car-dependent society that we have built has a lot of negative side-effects (starting with bad air quality thus health problems - not to forget "atomisation", or the lack of neighbourliness when we are cocooned in our cars and separated from one another). One obvious response is more cycling and certainly that's an area we have prioritised in Enfield (I think Matt and our Haringey friends are doing the same) - I'm Enfield's "cycling champion" and  where possible I try to use my two-wheeler for any trip below 3 miles. But it's clear that the problem is bigger.

Looking worldwide, you'll see a number of different systems used by municipalities to deal with this very same problem. I just read that in one neighbourhood in Beijing, the authorities are charging $26,000 annually for a parking space...!!! Kind of puts our local authority parking charges in perspective. I remember that Athens, in its battle against smog, used to only allow cars to go on the road every other day, policing this by reg plates (odd numbers, even numbers). Otherwise, in German elections one party once suggested that petrol prices be increased by a factor of four from one day to the next, to get people out of cars. Didn't happen but the idea had been to play on a shock effect. Small steady rises in fuel is clearly not doing the trick.

More practically, what we can do at London level is encourage public transportation, i.e. that it's not so bad owning a car,what's really bad is using it all the time (for instance, driving kids to school when you live just down the street - creating a problem that I've been working on at Bowes Primary using the Safer Neighbourhood Teams). But if we want to get people out of cars and into buses and trains (not to mention walking - including so-called 'school buses'), then maybe it's no good for us to have the most expensive public transport fares anywhere. Would have been surprising had I not finished this text with a bit of politics, but how can Boris Johnson justify Londoners paying so very much more than people from Paris, Berlin, Madrid, etc. for our transportation system when it performs so...how to put this delicately...iffy? Clearly there are positive externalities for people who don't use public transport when others do. Thus, there is a clear macro-economic justification for subsidising that behaviour (otherwise non-users get a 'free ride'). So why does Boris Johnson refuse that obviously fair and efficient solution - subsidising fares to get them down and get people out of cars. Is it because  his party has some ideological hang-up about cross-subsidisation? Whatever, TFL is too expensive. So people drive more than they should. And our parking and congestion problems get worse.

Anyway, sorry for carrying on so long. But transport and the environment is an area that really gets me/us going. Alan

Cllr Alan Sitkin

http://boweslabour.blogspot.co.uk/

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Permalink Reply by Alan Sitkin on April 4, 2012 at 17:09

I know I know Karen, the CPZ consultation outcome surprised me too but it was actually very one-sided. 

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Permalink Reply by Kathie Burke on April 5, 2012 at 14:56

Alan, I've read your reply carefully and it seems to me that your bottom line is that nothing can be done but anyway, we should all vote Boris out and take up bike-riding.

I would take issue with your statement that you "conducted extensive consultation with local residents".  One postal survey does not constitute "extensive consultation".  And as for the "democratic will", I think you are being disingenuous here.  I was very surprised, at the time of the postal survey, at how quickly the area was leafleted by what appeared to be a well-organised and resourced anti-CPZ lobby.  Their leaflet used many of the (false) arguments cited by Roland earlier in this discussion thread, it was very cleverly written, using very emotive language.  The anti-CPZ lobby seemed amazingly able to devise, print, copy & distribute this leaflet at very short notice, leading me to think that there might well be a powerful body of people with a hidden agenda of some sort.  Unsurprisingly, I think this leaflet swayed many people who had not thought the issue through properly or been offered a reasonable, balanced view of the pro's and con's.

I also think that survey results can be skewed, perhaps by including areas which do not need or want CPZ and will therefore out-vote the areas that do.

I think that the previously unheard opinions that have been offered in this discussion thread have been far more realistic and balanced than anything that appeared around the time of the survey.  I would also suggest that some real research is done in terms of a feasibility study - what would it cost the council(s), which streets really should be CPZ'd and which ones shouldn't, how much the residents would have to pay and also what the likely impact on parking would be, both in CPZ'd streets and non-CPZ'd streets nearby.  Then some time for people to air their views, then another survey.  Although I am sure surveys cost money, I don't think this issue is likely to go away and therefore should be re-visited at regular intervals as our neighbourhood evolves.

By the way, re my previous point about the population ageing and surviving longer with disabling conditions (which you reiterate), I have been medically barred from riding a bike since I was 9 years old after a RTA.  There are a lot of people like me, too fit for Blue Badges but not able to walk far or ride bikes.  There are also many young people like Nicole (above) who has a baby and a toddler - not great on bikes.  Maybe electric SmartCars are the future, but right now we need reasonably-sized cars and somewhere to park them close to where we live.  Too much to ask, maybe?

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